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25 Comments

  1. Sortie

    The idea is pretty good, the gameplay sounds a little hard to implement and the ending is ‘meh’. I’d love some more work on this idea though and would love to try a beta of the mod if anyone makes it.

  2. R26

    Great Idea. But I’d have to agree with Sortie, This would require a hell of a design to get good gameplay out of this concept. It would also be pretty hard for the player to identify himself with the main character. Killing Combine, Antlions and Zombies is easy cause they have little personalities. Killing humans is allot harder.

    Interesting concept.

  3. Gypsy Jim

    Half of the idea was already implemented, admittedly inadvertently, in the Substance Mods. ie “Friendly fire”. If you intentionally, or accidentally shot a buddy then they, & their pals turned on you….Could make things interesting…..but not usually for long.

    Inadvertent though it may be, you can still go kill all the bad guys, and then start picking off your (supposed) buddies….If you treat it as a challenge it more or less adds up to some of your suggestion, as far as I can see.

    I realise that your proposal goes a little beyond that, but the point is that the mechanics already exist to make it work. What we need now is one of your resident mappers/modders to throw their reasoning why it should or should not be implemented in the way you suggest……

    Lets face it though, if you whacked Barney in HL1 he only let you so much, before getting his gun out and letting you have it…….so that bit’s not the newest idea really….

    To just blur the lines and whack everyone….I can see, if you twist it about, that that might have some merit, but as your character already carries a dozen different (Impossible to carry all at the same time..) heavy duty weapons, (I mean an RPG, as well as Shotgun/various automatics, pistols, grenades etc etc..) and spend their time killing everything that moves..as well as being able to take dozens of hits without actually dying, (not terribly lifelike at all then….) that the twist might just a bit lost without an exceptionally clever story…..

    “Day Hard” had human-collaborators who would happily shoot you without provocation, so we know it can be done, in fact I’m struggling to think of any (HL2) others, though I’m sure there might have been several…..

    I like that you’re thinking about angles, but am not convinced that turning the hero-player into a psychopath is really the way forward, sorry Philip, that’s just my two pennorth…..Watching to see if I’m in the minority though.

  4. the ending is “Meh”.

    Not all ending shave to be WOW! Sometimes the journey is better than the arriving. I was more interested in changing the “reasons” for killing than creating a fantastic finale. I also wanted to tie it in to the original game somehow. A bit like I did with The Message story.

    This would require a hell of a design to get good gameplay out of this concept.

    Maybe, but I prefer to start with an idea and then worry about implementing it than think what I can do and write a story around that. The thing to remember is that these things just popped into my head and then I wrote them down and post them. Some are probably terrible, others not so terrible. Perhaps they inspire somebody to do something and then I’m happy. I actually enjoy writing the silly little intros to my mod stories and that’s another motivation.

    It would also be pretty hard for the player to identify himself with the main character. Killing Combine, Antlions and Zombies is easy cause they have little personalities. Killing humans is allot harder.

    Agreed, but not impossible. One thing I forgot to mention in my rush to post is that after each mini-mission there would be another round of narrative. Unlike the first one where the character spouts hate, the others explain his story and reasons. Unfortunately I have’t really thought that far!

    I really like narratives in movies and thought it would be fun in a mod too.

    Could make things interesting…..but not usually for long.

    agreed, but the mod isn’t about openly killing your allies. It’s basis is the decption. How long can you go without being detected. Accidental fire does happen and that’s why I suggested other, more subtle ways to kill the allies.
    As with all my stories I imagine very detailed levels where the player can utilize the environment to their advantage. Of course actually designing that is a huge challenge.

    If you treat it as a challenge it more or less adds up to some of your suggestion, as far as I can see.

    That’s the point. Find ways to kill them without being noticed. I never envisage a mod where all the player has to do is kill everybody around him in any way they want. Just look at the title.

    What we need now is one of your resident mappers/modders to throw their reasoning why it should or should not be implemented in the way you suggest……

    Perhaps but maybe I don’t want to be limited by others” views of the possibilities. Admittedly I can’t go and make it but exploring the idea is still a lot of fun. The problem with allow other mappers to decide if it would work or not is whether they have fully understood the concept. And perhaps I haven’t explained it in enough detail. To really get other people on board would require a detailed design document, and that’s beyond the scope of this post.

    so that bit’s not the newest idea really….

    I never claimed it was a completely original idea. I believe my idea stands apart from anything else is for the combination of aspects.

    but as your character already carries a dozen different

    This goes back to the detailed design document. WHo said he would carry all those weapons? In fact as I suggested in another idea maybe each mini-mission he could lose a weapon as the rebels lose faith in him.

    I would prefer that he just have a pistol and have to use his guile to kill not firepower.

    and spend their time killing everything that moves.

    I never imagined that either. The point is that the MOST important factors for the player is NOT TO GET CAUGHT and NOT TO GET KILLED. If that means waiting for the right time, then perfect. The gameplay would ahve to be very carefully designed to ensure that simply starting to kill “everything that moves” would fail. I am aiming for something much deeper.

    but am not convinced that turning the hero-player into a psychopath is really the way forward

    Neither am I but this is a process not an end result and maybe through some collaboration a workable idea could emerge.

    sorry Philip, that’s just my two pennorth

    No need to apologize at all. You are just sharing your opinion.

    Finally I apologize if I seem too defensive. I just wanted to counter points you made. Part of the problem is that I haven’t really explained who everything would work. I really only explained the story behind it and not the details.

  5. Count_de_Monet

    Interesting idea but I don’t feel hatred has to be the only motor for action. This make the player a psychopath. OK but predictable. Now make the player a sociopath, i.e. no feelings at all except personal convenience. Yoy now have three scenarii: hero, psychopath, sociopath : Good, Bad and U…nhuman. Roll the three into one mod adaptable to any map or game, with choice at the beginning:

    Choose one character, then play the map and see how you fare in each skin. Would the hero be more successful, or the baddies? Of course this has to be set in a purely standard, non-specially tweaked map.

    Try to be real when playing. The hero will greet the rebels and help them, the psycho will shoot on sight, the sociopath will talk, learn the latest info then get closer and shoot the friendly in the head at point blank: Best of both worlds: info plus fun.

    Wors of caution: would such maps lead fragile minds to consider that evil is more fun? Is the profusion of shoot’em up a fiendish plan to prepare brainwashed humans for Armageddon? Am I paranoid? Is paranoid the word idiots use to describe smart people? Am I elected yet?

  6. Chris Fox

    I rather like the idea and would like to seriously discuss it further with you Phillip.

    I have other commitments right now, but one of my mapping objectives for the future is to make a very “dark” mod and I have a lot of ideas to add to the horror of such a project.

    Give me a shout, dude. 🙂

  7. Mel

    It could work; we have enough reasons to kill every thing except the rebel factor in HL2. What are needed are feasible reasons to also hate the rebels to the point of killing them. But you don’t have to give that away up front, keep the player in the dark to why you are also killing off the rebels; now this is the part were the strength of the story matters. So between now and you starting the mod Phillip you need to come up with reason to why? But it must be kept a secret.

  8. Count_de_Monet

    Mel,

    I don’t think we need a reason besides personal will or inclination. The hard thing is to convert the various behaviors in quantitative assets. How do we create a difference in gameplay as the consequence of killing or not the rebels? Loss of info? Ammo waste ? Lack of help in the coming scene? Mental perturbation? Getting a dark screen saying we’ve just waited essential personel is simply not enough.

    So the real difficulty is not behavior, it’s consequences… Hmmmm… like the road to Hell is paved with good will?
    A classic dilemna indeed.

    Cheers,

  9. Chris Fox

    I have been working on a mod for the last several months which could conceivably used as an introduction for the scenario described by Phillip, without a great deal of extra work.

    It contains answers to all of Count-de-Monet’s questions already, and since I was kinda stuck for a way to continue the mod, this could be a nice possibility.

  10. Mel

    Count_de_Monet, Why the need to create a difference in gameplay? Yes make it darker but no need for the player to know why he is killing Rebels, just that he knows he needs to kill them. You could either play this out without any need to know or hint bit by bit with the progression of the play WHY, but maybe not slotting the last piece of the puzzle and leaving the player to assess that, like the end of some film that I can’t remember the name of.

  11. Patali

    Because Mel, players need a bit more encouragement when doing such things. A story alone would grow incredibly dull. I completely agree with Count_de_Monet, and raise similar questions. You have to keep the player wanting more. But I’m sorry to say that I think this mod sounds like it may become one of those ones where you play the first level over-and-over again, without continuing forward. But I do love playing as a psychopath, and I do hope this idea will spring up into something more in the coming days.

  12. Count_de_Monet

    Another embarrassing fact: Push the idea real far and it starts to be very … kinky.
    What would you rather do: kill Alex’s dad and rape her or the opposite? And why? how would this fit in a realistic story?
    You can always make hypotheses, but when you start naming things, you very quickly go from fun to ugly. Does this post mean I’m afraid to play a….”triggering mod”, just because I might learn unpleasant stuff about myself?

    All things considered, I’d rather be a hero and get rewarded by a willing Alex. I’m just an old softie, really…

  13. Robspace1

    Don’t like the sport killing idea. It does sound like a Viet Nam Vet with PTS gone nuts.Why kill ALL the good guys? I can see weeding out some that are spys for the Combine and figuring out who they are and taking just them out sounds good but to take out all your friends makes no sense. After you have kiiled both the good and the bad guys then what? You find out you made a mistake and your now all alone and off yourself? Part of the fun of HL is knowing your killing some evil people. I just can’t see killing the rebels as a whole group.

  14. Count_de_Monet

    Now, that’s a good idea: find spies and traitors and waiste them. Gaming consequences: the Combine loses info and performs less. easy to quantitate and use to twist the game.
    For example: you get the spy, then you sneak in some back door, or sewer without problem. You miss the spy, he does his job and the informed Combine is waiting for you behind the door. Consequence: wounding, ammo spending, general alarm.
    RobSpace1, I think you’ve found a real improvment here.

  15. Ade

    It centers on a rebel who is a psychopath. Every mod I can remember places the player in the role of the hero and I was thinking about something a little different.

    Try to understand what this man is trying to say..

    Why kill ALL the good guys?

    Because you’re a psycho!

    Part of the fun of HL is knowing your killing some evil people.

    That’s what most of the mods are about. This is meant to be different from the start!

    I for one love the idea because it implies stealth and sleekness and hope it’s not too hard to implement, I will definitely play/test it when finished. But it must give me a solid reason to finish it. I have to have a purpose, a mission. When will it be over and how? When I’m alone in the universe? Or just after all the humans and the Combine are gone?

    My objective is to kill you and anybody else I can

    “I can” isn’t strong enough, makes me think that at some point I will fail and the game ends just like that.. The ending from the spoiler will be disappointing. Imho.

    1. It’s just an idea Ade, in fact I am working on fleshing out the basic idea with somebody who has the skills to bring it to fruition. The story is different but the basic theme remains.

  16. Robspace1

    “Some clever person Said:”

    Why kill ALL the good guys?

    Thanks, I am clever. And I also enjoy the puzzles and logic that goes into a game, any game.I don’t play the game to slaughter people. I don’t mind taking out the bad guys but when you make yourself judge, jury and executioner, then you have moved from a thinking man to a sociapath. To turn Gordon into a psycho is sacralige.Now, I can see Gordon tracking down a pyscho, if you really need a psychopath to be in the mod ,but I don’t think it would be right to turn Gordon into one. So, it comes down to the reason you like the game, or the main reason. To kill or work the puzzles out and solve problems. I see the killing as a part of the job of liberating the freedom fighters. Killing anyone only makes sense if there’s a real good reason for it, and if your now killing your friends then everyone you feel like killing is fair game. This idea would probably work for FEAR as the “hero” in that game is not really known as well as Gordon. Wholesale slaughter would be enjoyed by a few but not by a majority, in my most clever opinion.

    One other option could be a temporary state of insanity, say from a fall or some drug that was given to him. He wakes up and has forgotten who and where he is and everyone looks like the enemy. So, he goes on a killfest through one map then comes out of it before he kills off all the reblels. Maybe Barney and Alyx find an antidote to Gordons condition and he snaps back-or it was all a dream!!

  17. To turn Gordon into a psycho is sacralige

    You have made a huge jump with that statement. This idea clearly doesn’t turn Gordon into a psycho.

    The basis of the new story is that good people sometimes do bad things and until you know the whole story you should judge.

  18. Robspace1

    I believe you were saying to NOT judge rather then to judge right? I’m not. I’m simply commenting on the statement made by Ade-“Because you’re a psycho!”. So, if Gordon is now a “psycho” I don’t agree that it would be a good idea. I prefer thinking Gordon as a likable guy not a nut case who kills everything insight, but hey, that’s just me ok? Call me old fashioned.I’m old school where the general rule is that the good guys take out the bad. Of course in real life, the opposite is too often true. Bottom line is it’s your game, your idea and your free to make whatever you want. I would, if I could. My forte is music and I don’t let anyone tell me what to play.

    1. The playing character is not Gordon, it’s somebody else completely. That means that we don’t have any expectations about his actual character. With Gordon we do, we played as him, him being the hero etc. To make Gordon a psycho would be wrong, no argument here.

      I’m trying to explore an idea that blurs the line between good and evil because as you know real life isn’t so black and white. Sometimes you have to kill good people to save more good people.

      All you have seen so far is the opening narrative. You don’t know why he is the way he is and you certainly don’t know the consequences of his actions in the long term.

      As I mentioned in the post, this is not to everybody’s taste, mine included, but sometimes ideas need to be followed even if you don’t like where they are leading.

  19. Robspace1

    O-good! So, that would leave a real good reason for Gordon to go after the guy., hopefully and of course the hero wins in the end and the madman is left in a heap-I really hope you don’t let the bad guy win, right? Well maybe round one but not the big fight at the end.That could be good.

  20. Count_de_Monet

    My point was that the idea is interesting as such, but does not fit the game in terms of logic. That’s why I made a circular reasoning going back to the original scheme : to demonstrate that we can play hero because we know what it means but we can’t play psycho or socio….unless this is what we are. You can’t fake madness, the result is meaningless because you would not do it right.
    It is already possible to shoot everybody and then bang their bodies against the wall with the grav-gun. But then the bodies don’t come apart and you can’t eat them. IT JUST DOES NOT IMPROVE THE GAME.

    If someone finds a way to improve the game’s interest using a well-constructed deviant frame of mind, I’m willing to try but I think I’ll wait a long time.

  21. Count_de_Monet

    Ah-ah……. fancy that….

  22. Below is my amateurish reading of the introduction narrative.” Not even…it’s fine, it relays the emotion well

    “I dream of a world with no humans or Combine.” I think we all dream that dream now and then..lol..Utopian

    I think quite a few would play this mod..I know I would..

  23. Anon_1264804

    ‘Tis missing text…

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